Statues, Idols, and Symbols ~~ Oh My

[Flo]

So it's more or less in the subject title and the photos above. In recent years, there has been significant pressure regarding confederate statues, flags, symbols, etc. in the public sphere. While there has surely been dissatisfaction with confederate statues, flags, symbols, etc. for some time, this came up significantly in 2015, when there was significant backlash regarding the confederate flags being used atop government buildings and in other public spaces, and since then has grown to encompass all sorts of confederate symbols and statues.


In the years since, confederate statues in particular have gotten a lot of bad press, and it seems every month or so there's another mayor announcing their city will be taking down statues or removing symbols from government spaces, parks, etc. Even streets names after significant confederate leaders have been targeted.

This topic will be available for members to discuss how they feel regarding the subject of Confederate symbols, flags, statues, etc. Feel free to rebut, discuss, confirm, debate, all you'd like. I get that there are significant branches this discussion could take that aren't all on topic, so try to stay as close to the primary topic as you can, which is the confederate flags, symbols, and statues and primarily their removal/defence, etc.

Keep in mind there are gentlemans club rules, please follow them: http://board.eternityrpc.com/showthread.php?tid=14

[Nentsia]

*snip*

- Seperallis

[Flo]

well, I at the very least will post how I feel. if they refuse to respond that's their own business. with the introduction of the new rules, this will be one of the few places we can discuss things like this, so people will either post here or not at all

[Flo]

So, where do I begin on a subject like this...

I see in my news feed this morning that Baltimore has removed it's last confederate statues overnight. I made sure to note my reactions to reading the article. Honestly? I was very much indifferent with slight leanings towards being okay with what happened. I understand they did it over night, in cover of darkness, to avoid the trouble that happened in Charlottesville over the weekend. I am very much understanding of that choice. (also, wasn't Baltimore in a union state? wtf?)

Being not from the South, I don't personally identify with the confederates or "southern pride" as they say, at all. I just don't. It all seems silly to me, honestly. So defending statues of confederate officials, generals, etc. just doesn't really vibe with me, because I wasn't really raised in a culture that cared about them or even recognized them as anything other than losers, more or less.

With regards to history and preserving it, I think there's plenty to be said there, but to summarize my views on that, I think it's not only possible but very easy to learn about history and understand history without putting it on a pedestal for everyone to see. When I think of statues in public, especially government spaces, I think it's almost a place of honor, respect,  and reverence. Everyone sees this statue and you can go by the placard and read it to learn more, etc. Receiving a statue, to me, is a sign of honor and respect by quite literally putting the person (or rather their form) on a pedestal for everyone to see. With regards to confederate statues, I don't personally see much to respect or honor there. What they fought for was a states right to determine whether or not humans could be slaves, right? (although that's a whole other can of worms, surely) To me, a position like that is not worthy of honor or respect. Sure, we can have busts of Lee or Jackson or even Davis in museums, and civil war cemeteries where confederates were laid to rest can be treated with respect, etc., but putting Jackson or Lee on a statue in front of a courthouse, or naming a school after him, etc. is putting too much honor and respect for someone who ultimately was fighting for a cause we, as a society, have deemed unjust.  Sure, stick them in a museum for historical reference. Have their pictures, speeches, actions, etc. in history books. I totally understand that. Statues to me are more than just historical reference points, they're places of honor and respect, which I don't believe those who fought for the confederacy deserve.

I get the history thing, but move that to the museum and the history books. We don't need statutes to remember history, at least I don't.

~~~

As an aside, I don't really have a horse in this race, specifically, and don't have any personal feelings regarding confederate symbols, other than a bit of bias in that I just assume anyone waving a confederate flag is either ignorant or trying to get attention, especially up here in the north. I know I have that bias and it is something I have been working on, but self awareness and improvement is hard, yo

[Lomarre]

*snip*

Cute.

Well, onto the topic.

If I were to see the current atmosphere in the identitarian politics of the modern left, I'd see a group of rich white people trying to please the masses by tearing down statues of rich white men. Many of which who shared the same (D) for Democrate at one point in time.

The problem with pleasing the massing by tearing down statues is hardly a move to rewrite history (yet), but moreso to win votes in areas democrats most likely would have won. What it is doing, is pushing more people to the white nationalists, sadly. When you do whatever you can to make white people look bad, by re-writing history, by saying they have privilege, by saying they need to stop talking when it comes to race. Then what would their average response be? "Fuck You too, pal", comes to mind.

However, if the democrats keep pushing to tear down statues, then what is next are those who had "problematic" world views during the 1700s-1960s. Examples can be seen here:

Teddy is a Bigot and Needs to Go, says Activists in New York -Guardian

Jefferson Memorial Question Looms - LAtimes

These are real. Where we have political ideologues on the left who want either our best US president ever to be kicked out of a museum, or we have our founding father lose his memorial. This is a matter of history. It's not a slippery slope if activists are already pushing for it. It's just the left won't say that till the time comes. But five years from now? We'll be hearing debate about Mt. Rushmore. You can say its just crazy lefties for now, but if Progressives believe in progress being endless, then this is coming soon to a museum near you.

Do I care if a bunch of rebel scum get torn down from the south? Somewhat. I can't say I have any love for the Confederacy, or its values of slavery. But Generals like Jackson or Lee were two of the greatest tacticians of the 1860s. Hell, Lee was the one who taught most of the US generals who fought him in the war. His statues deserve a place of honor in Virginia if not for his service to his state, then for his military achievements during the Mexican war in the 1830s-40s.


(367 words. :^) )

[Flo]

I'm going to ignore your comments regarding lefties, progressives, etc. since it distracts from the primary argument in play.

I'm trying to understand where removing statues is not removing history, as you say here:

The problem with pleasing the massing by tearing down statues is hardly a move to rewrite history (yet),

But you make the claim that it is removing history here:

These are real. Where we have political ideologues on the left who want either our best US president ever to be kicked out of a museum, or we have our founding father lose his memorial. This is a matter of history. It's not a slippery slope if activists are already pushing for it. It's just the left won't say that till the time comes. But five years from now? We'll be hearing debate about Mt. Rushmore. You can say its just crazy lefties for now, but if Progressives believe in progress being endless, then this is coming soon to a museum near you.

I'm just trying to understand whether you are making the argument that removing statues is removing history or not. While your post is appreciated, and goes to explain some of the reasons political figures might be looking to jump on this bandwagon, it doesn't really identify whether or not removing statues is removing or re-writing history, which is a primary argument against removing statues.

As I read the article, I do recognize that they're arguing for removal from a museum (the Roosevelt article), which is particularly interesting to me, as museums are places where one would go to see things like this. Are you making the distinction because the folks trying to remove Roosevelt are trying to remove it from a museum?

The Jefferson memorial and mount rushmore one is interesting as well. I have not visited the Jefferson memorial personally, and don't really plan to, so I can't speak to whats inside it or what it does from a first hand basis. Mount Rushmore, however, has always been something that I thought was stupid. We carved four presidents heads into a mountain in the middle of nowhere, for whatever reason. Rushmore is more of a monument than a piece of historical reference, etc. their heads are on the side of a mountain and will be for a long time, even if it wasn't maintained. To me that's a place of honor, respect, etc. as I mentioned previously. As I previously stated, places of honor and respect shouldn't really be there for people who don't "deserve it" in a way, and if those people don't represent what society believes is worthy of respect, I understand why they would be torn down.

(aside: I'm not sure what they'd do to tear down rushmore... would they blow it up with TNT? would they put washingtons giant ass nose in a museum? that'd be interesting lol, end aside)

My opinions about whether or not they were "the best presidents" or not is irrelevant and would distract from what I'm trying to say. The Roosevelt demand is interesting, because it's a museum, but is a statue really a piece of historical reference? What do people go to museums for? Do I look at a statue to learn about history? These are the questions we should be looking to ask if we want to identify the historical value of a thing, a statue, in this instance. I'm not a historian, so correct me if I'm wrong with regards to that.



https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7808514,...312!8i6656

This is the statue in question. You can click the google maps link and if I did it right it should show you right where it is. When I look at it I notice a few things. This isn't actually in the museum at all, it's outside of the museum, similar to some of the confederate statues that are being toppled. To me, this is a place of honor, reverence, respect, etc. not a place for "learning history". This goes back to my previous comments.