Nukes and You

[Rommy]

I would like to start a permanent thread to record our thoughts on Nuclear Weapons in our new modern tech roleplay. I am down to allow them, but I would like to hear other people's thoughts as well as possible restrictions they may want.

[Seperallis]

I'll copy what I wrote on the discord.

Let's remove the ban and see what happens.
There's nothing a "well that was a mistake" retcon can't fix. :person_shrugging:
And it's a hell of a lot easier than trying to contrive some absurd workaround why we somehow never split the atom. If it becomes a problem that everyone is going nuclear, then require the written RP of a nuclear weapons development program, the way we did for spacefaring.

It was also stated in the chat, and I agree with it, that the original ban was a reaction to so many people discarding any rational thought and waving them around in threat at the slightest...slight. But the past is really incidental, and the ultimate question we should be asking about them is "How will the inclusion of nuclear weapons improve RP?"

If nuclear weapons are included as a backdrop to better plots and setting and stories, then I am all for their inclusion. If we look back at the last 80 years of nuclear development, some of the most thrilling events of the last century occurred either directly because of or with the undercurrent of nuclear threat. From espionage, to diplomatic incidents, to misunderstandings that nearly lead to warfare, to accidents on both domestic and foreign soils, the threat and danger of nuclear weapons holds tons of potential for new plots and conflicts for people to write about...if it wasn't obvious by the absolute plethora of Cold War/nuclear fiction already available. Nuclear weapons are as much a liability as they are an asset.

Of course, if the reason to have nuclear weapons is so a few people can pretend to be "superpowers" with perfect nations on never ending map-painting quests, then those people are simply on the wrong forum. I like to think most of us are half a decade wiser than to try that again...or to cry about unfair nuclear weapons because we're stupid enough to think that poking the nuclear bear would not make the bear bite back.

But that's my two cents.
And don't misinterpret me as saying they should be included but never used...by all means, blow yourselves up, but at least try to remember why they've only been dropped twice in anger.

[Raz]

Personally I think they're necessary for a modern technical society to have taken shape, however I don't know if it's a good idea to have them active. Perhaps we could utilize a previous historical event to have explained a ban if we go with a "soft-ban." It could even explain why our nations are so weirdly segmented and don't seem naturally coalesced as well.

[Aerandariel]

I have been very consistent throughout my RP time that I oppose nuclear weapons in any way shape or form and I remain as such. The very thought that a nation in our RP world could be willing to use such excessive force at the tiniest insult or comment (looking at you, Carpathia...) makes me really unwilling to relent on banning their development and use. I, however, have not been opposed to using nuclear power as a energy source. Beyond that, I admit I am very much in the dark regarding nuclear technology.

I disagree with Seperallis; most events involving nuclear weapons often don't go well in my experience and typically involve either a) a further RP global catastrophe such as war or such occurring or b) a lot of butthurt people because they don't want to take a loss or a big hit like that. It basically devolves into a giant e-peen contest, which is very unsavory. So I don't see how they would necessarily lead to better plots or storylines. If I remember correctly, two of Siora's most successful RP stories (one of which I was involved in, the Galasian Civil War and the other one was I think the fascist revolution in Brigidna), were actually quite compelling and told a pretty good story. So the writing is not an issue.

However... If we go the route of allowing nuclear weapons, then so be it. I am just afraid they would used and abused.

[Sal]

Nukes are modern tech. I'm fine with them.

It also makes it easier to discuss peaceful applications of nuclear energy without skirting the question of why no one ever thought to strap it to a warhead to just have them exist.

If they do exist, I feel our society would have come up with laws and regulations regarding their use knowing that MAD would be good for no one. I like the idea that they have been used once previously and now everyone's gun-shy.

[Severyane]

To be fair, I think Sep’s point is that most of us are a fair bit older and hopefully want to RP for fun rather than “my e-peen is bigger.” I am guilty of doing the whole dick waving contest with Carp, I will admit. This I can attribute mostly to being very interested in military stuff. However now, if someone were to go “lel imma nuke ur azz” I’d probably shrug it off and RP the consequences.

I think it should be allowed, though I can’t say I plan on obtaining nukes beyond power plants personally.

[Flo]

I agree with nukes. give me my gigantic nuclear penis /s

I think the trick is just making them difficult to obtain / use. there should be consequences for trying to develop them and big bois should probably try to stop it.

If we decide who has them initially, nuclear treaties were probably signed.

Also my Socialist Union needs an American pog rival.

[Nentsia]

Unless we have had our own Cold War, I also doubt that any RP nation would develop the absurd kind of arsenals like the US and USSR did. As most of the later nuclear powers, such as France, Israel, Pakistan, India etc, having nuclear weapons serves as a deterrent and they're happy with having only a small stockpile. Even the USSR at some point was confident a nuclear arms race could be averted and cherished illusions that only a few would do the job. Then US politicians in campaign mode invented the ''Missile Gap'' and began to convert it into mass production.

I think its entirely logical that they'd exist in our world, and usually, those few countries willing to waste their resources on developing do so because they fear someone else's invasion and just need something to deter. I doubt ''MAD'' would even be a thing in our world. Especially since ICBM's were created because the US and Soviet Union were so far apart. I can see some of the more paranoid countries among us being safe enough with a small stash of tactical or intermediate range nuclear missiles, capable of oblitterating whatever battlefield and the city that was unlucky enough to be it. I don't think the earth-destroying inter-continental entire populations evaporating arsenals of genocidal destruction would be the norm, if it hadn't been for the Cold War where two deranged superpowers reasoned they needed spare nukes to take out the nukes of their enemy on the other side of the planet and also have enough to genocide them from distance.

On top of that, this discussion and the thoughts of virtually all participants in this RP alone shows me we've become mature enough to handle such delicate fictional toys.

[Zabuza825]

In any case, whether they're allowed or not, I would like Akitsu to have attempted to create nuclear weapons and then had it fail and catastrophically backfire (airplane carrying the warhead crashes while heading to first test, safety system fails, Akitsu ends up accidentally nuking one of it's own cities, leading the country to abandon nuclear weapons after massive public backlash).

Regarding justifying the development of nuclear technology in this world without bombs - it definitely would have happened. As Nents said in the chat - while war can in some cases lead to the development of technology it's not always the driving factor. I'm going to add my own views on it here, but generally war leads to the development of technology for war. Some of that tech doesn't actually get a civilian use until much later.

People would have began experimenting with radioactivity and nuclear energy with or without a major war. Now, it might take longer without a war, simply because the political will to fund such a program might be lacking without a potential military application for that tech, but it would have happened at some point regardless.

Now that said, without a military application it is possible for other forms of nuclear technology to take off, such as thorium-based nuclear power. Part of the reason this world uses primarily Uranium and Plutonium-based nuclear power is not simply that it was easier to build those reactors with the tech available at the time (they already understood how to handle Uranium and Plutonium from the nuclear weapons programs), but also because it would have been difficult to turn the nuclear waste from a thorium reaction into a nuclear weapon (with the technology available at the time, it's easier with modern tech though still an expensive and time-consuming process). Such development would also allow for wildly varied development of nuclear technology - countries that developed nuclear power first would likely stick with Uranium reactors (with early nuclear tech it would be much easier to produce these, and once a nuclear industry gets created around it it'll be difficult to change) while those that develop it later on might (depending on whether or not the person controlling the country wants it) develop something like thorium.

That's mostly speculation on my part but hey, it's interesting to consider.

As for whether or not nuclear weapons should be allowed... that's tough for me. Morally I would never let any of my countries touch a nuclear weapon, but as for other people... I'm not necessarily opposed to someone having it if they're willing to go through the process of RP'ing a nuclear program (it shouldn't be a simple process since... well making nukes isn't a simple process). But I am worried that it could devolve into what other people have already voiced concerns about.

Also note that in real life there's only one real country that waves around it's nukes around wildly, and that country wants people to believe that it's current leader (and his father) can control the weather. And there's a reason for that.

[Rommy]

Quick idea while I'm working on other stuff:

We could build off the Akitsu Bombing itself idea to the point that an international treaty was signed that limits stockpiles to like 500 war heads or something, yes that could be violated in RP but its a good OOC rule to have imo.