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On balancing and reviving activity - Ceausescu - 10-01-2017
This is a continuation of this post and the discussion that followed on Discord between me and Lines. I've come up with an idea to attempt to address the two issues I brought up in the post linked above, which I will expand on here.
One of the biggest problems we have in Eternity, is the geopolitical nightmare that leads to a situation where every continent/region keeps to itself and interacts very little outside of its comfort zone. This kills wars, as most of them end up being very one-sided, or don't get enough activity due to regionalist restrictions. It also makes most diplomacy pointless, as Eternity has a very passive status quo, which is strictly enforced by the geopolitical situation. What's the point of signing anything more than a trade pact and a couple of generic defense accords with a few neighbors, if there is no risk of a major war occurring in the foreseeable future.
There's also the problem of a lack of theme, which is important more for recruiting new members, although it can help foster activity for the old members as well. We have a very good community here and a fairly expansive lore, but on their own, these two aspects do not make good enough selling points for a lot of people, since every good NS community also has these advantages. We need a theme, something to set Eternity apart from the other NSMT groups, that can catch the eye of people and get them to join up.
So, in order to address the geopolitical issues of regionalism and lack of global issues that would circumvent that, I came up with the idea to spawn a second NPC superpower, on par with Nyland in terms of GDP and overall strength, but this time a totalitarian, dystopian state that would partner up with other dictatorships, just like Nyland partners up with the democracies/capitalist states. This would tilt the balance of power between the democracies and dictatorships and maybe put them close to being on par with eachother.
This can also serve as the seed of an ongoing, overall theme. I'm taking inspiration from a number of sources, such as the Killzone series (very good games, you should give them a try if you have a PS3) and the Red Rising series of books (something of a mix between the Hunger Games, Red Faction and some inspiration from the Holy Roman Empire).
My idea is of an antagonist who doesn't simply want to oppress everyone because evil, but a nation with an ideology that it believes, is for the overall greater good and the betterment of humanity. The as-of-yet unnamed ideology incorporates ideas of military rule, with eugenics and a good dose of social darwinism. The strong thrive and rule, the weak go extinct. They believe that ideas of freedom, democracy, equality, communism and individual rights, are detrimental for the long-term survival and evolution of humanity and that in order to insure the survival of the species, a strict, new world order must be established, one which exercises complete control over every aspect of society, with the clear goal of advancing the human species technologically, culturally and genetically.
The society of this nation would be stratocratic, somewhat reminiscent of Starship Troopers. There is a clear distinction between civilians, citizens and leaders. Civilians do the work, citizens serve in the military (the only way to obtain the status of citizen) and vote leaders, while only the leadership caste may run for office (this caste is drawn from the highest-ranking military officials and scientists).
My idea was to drop this NPC in not-Antarctica (there already is an NPC there, which could be expanded into this). They'd have to import their food and would have a hard time maintaining a high population, so I'm thinking about 100 million people. They offset this population defficiency with a massive economy fueled by a powerful industry, vast reserves of natural resources such as oil and minerals and the most advanced technology in the world. This location also fits with their theme of "survival of the fittest", as a civilization of this size existing in such an environment, would face tough challenges and would realistically opt towards a strict, highly ordered society in order to simply survive.
Also, since this isn't enough to prevent Nyland & friends from just invading anyway, I was thinking we should give this NPC nukes. A monopoly on nuclear weapons would make a strong deterrent that would offset the lack of population, but their arsenal shouldn't be big enough to allow them to outright attack everyone else, just a deterrent that puts them on par with Lanlania and Nyland.
EDIT: Forgot to mention this, but if we go down this route, our NS page, as well as our recruitment/promotional material should include references to this. We should have a short description of Nyland and this new NPC, their summarized beliefs and a short snippet about the geopolitical situation.
RE: On balancing and reviving activity - Rommy - 10-01-2017
I like the idea, just not the nukes; This NPC should also be run in a style similar to Nyland where its a community of people running it instead of just the directorate, with one person heading the project in a way.
However, nukes should remain banned for all practical purposes from RP and that includes here. If this country with the most advanced tech had nukes why wouldn't Lanlania and Nyland and Seveyerane and Carpathia and the list keeps going also research them at some point. The reason that other powers haven't stomped out this dystopia is probably because of the massive causalities it would result from, it is part of the reason that I understand we did not invade North Korea for the longest time; the outrageous amounts of causalities would make it completely illogical to attempt taking down the dictatorship. Especially for our not anacrtica here, it is an island in one of the most hostile environments on Earth, you would have to be insane to even send in something, let alone a massive military force far from home and potentially friendly nations just to take this place out.
The country should also be either on par or slightly less than Nyland tech wise. Or it trades certain areas of development for others, maybe medicine isn't as developed but its radar systems might be slightly more advanced, stuff like that
RE: On balancing and reviving activity - Nentsia - 10-01-2017
I agree there is a certain RP passivity here but I think an important reason for that is that its been 5 years after Caprecia. Everyone here has gotten old(er), and as a result, I suppose, have less energy left to focus on regular RP posting, or coming up with big plots and stories.
If I speak for myself, I notice that many RP ideas that I have die in an early stage when I think of the amount of posts it would require to complete the story. I refrain from even making a start.
Other than that, I do like the idea of having a Rogue NPC around (if you want it to be a Fascist state, you could've said so and spare the lengthy description). It would add an interesting dimension.
RE: On balancing and reviving activity - Ceausescu - 10-01-2017
(10-01-2017, 06:27 PM)Rommy Wrote: I like the idea, just not the nukes; This NPC should also be run in a style similar to Nyland where its a community of people running it instead of just the directorate, with one person heading the project in a way.
However, nukes should remain banned for all practical purposes from RP and that includes here. If this country with the most advanced tech had nukes why wouldn't Lanlania and Nyland and Seveyerane and Carpathia and the list keeps going also research them at some point. The reason that other powers haven't stomped out this dystopia is probably because of the massive causalities it would result from, it is part of the reason that I understand we did not invade North Korea for the longest time; the outrageous amounts of causalities would make it completely illogical to attempt taking down the dictatorship. Especially for our not anacrtica here, it is an island in one of the most hostile environments on Earth, you would have to be insane to even send in something, let alone a massive military force far from home and potentially friendly nations just to take this place out.
The country should also be either on par or slightly less than Nyland tech wise. Or it trades certain areas of development for others, maybe medicine isn't as developed but its radar systems might be slightly more advanced, stuff like that
Oh, it should definitely be a community-run project, akin to Nyland, although more cut-throaty (OOC, its run by player vote, like Nyland, but IC, we make it so that whoever won the vote, "influenced" the election, or something). As for nukes, personally I don't think they're so scary, though I understand your concerns about the other powers having them.
In terms of tech, it should not be less advanced than Nyland. Nyland has a much bigger population, this NPC needs to offset that somehow and one way to do that, is by having the most advanced military tech in the world. It needs to be a rival that is on-par with Nyland, capable of going head-to-head with it if a prolonged 1vs1 war were to happen between them.
I'm saying a prolonged war, because given Nyland's current military, a lot of smaller powers can hold their own against it at first, but if Nyland ever gets a war economy going, they have the industrial capacity to churn out equipment at a ridiculous rate and their army would soon outnumber anyone they face, with equipment that is on par with that of the other 1st rate powers. This NPC needs to be able to do the same and replace losses at the same rate that Nyland can, or offset that with a technological advantage in areas where loss replacement would require a higher population in order to be at Nyland's levels.
RE: On balancing and reviving activity - Rommy - 10-01-2017
I do not think nukes are scary, I just believe the directorate rule of them being banned practically from RP should remain as it is with no exemptions or stuff like that.
But again if the idea is used to place this thing at the south pole, I believe is enough of a "HOLY SH#! we would lose thousands just trying to take a mile on the beach, and thousands more per each other mile" concept based on your description of how the nation should go that no one would attempt to think of invading the place. Even if it is super evil, the cost vs. benefit isn't there, and I see proxy wars being more in the interest of competing powers.
My idea for the community run aspect as that the central leader or committee/whatever makes decisions based on an OOC vote, but each person interested in the project can be made some sort of administration head or regional governor stuff like that. Adds an interesting layer.
RE: On balancing and reviving activity - Raz - 10-02-2017
Yay someone else agrees with me! Whenever I've become more active on here again I've expressed similar ideas and issues on the Chat. Last I was truly active on here I was trying to stir up a world war between Fascists and Not-Fascists, then it all just died in an instant.
I do think that Ikar has a point about us being older and less full of energy but there's a reason I'm still here, I want to be active but there's nothing of interest to be active in.
I'm down with the second Big Bad NPC, I'll gladly help with it. My only thought is that Not-Antarctica is probably not the best place to put such a country but that can be addressed in detail later.
RE: On balancing and reviving activity - Alvino Castillon - 10-02-2017
Before I begin this, let me say that if the primary reason for this is to kickstart recruitment, that isn't a good idea. I think this change should only be considered if people are in favor of this being a way to kickstart activity. Otherwise this risks running into becoming a chore.
That being said... the rest of this is gonna be half stream of consciousness half thought out ahead of time. Nents also covered a major point though so... I guess that covers the first major point. So lemme start there.
Adulthood sucks. Looking for jobs or working, paying bills, trying to have a social life of some sort and shit like that. That all gets in the way. We're just fairly busy overall nowadays and that plays a major role. Actually, it's always been a major problem for Siora and to some extent back in Oracia, although we were younger then and that... well I'll get to all that in a sec.
The fact is we are busy. We don't start RPs because we can't keep ourselves committed to them for various reasons, chief among them the fact that time is ever ticking forward and there is only so much time we have to do all the things we want to. Alternatively you could be me and literally have little time AND ADHD which has always been a huge damned problem because I have the attention span/emotional attachment of a squirrel sometimes.
That actually rolls into the enthusiasm aspect. I think it's safe to say that the lack of continued activity can have a drain on morale at times. Not wanting to start something new because inevitably people fall out of responding has always been a bit of a problem to say the least. Even in Oracia, this was a problem; I was probably the worst offender because again, attention span/emotional attachment of a squirrel sometimes.
You may be noting I keep bringing up Oracia. Yes yes. Hiss, boo. Can it for a second because I'll be looping back to that in a moment.
So we're inactive overall, older, busy, and demoralized and not willing to start up something new. So the proposal now is "Hey, let's bring in a new SuperNPC ™ to serve as an antagonist of sorts and to balance out Nyland." The idea would then be that we would have two competing superpowers that develop global alliances to lead the future in the way they feel would be best. Democracy versus Totalitarianism. Egalitarianism versus Social Darwinism. Democratic Union versus Trilateral Alliance. Batman versus Superman (Batman all the way)-
"HEY WAIT A SECOND," You say, your eyes bulging and your finger pointing accusingly towards me. "YOU JUST MENTIONED AN ORACIA THING. HOW DARE YOU MENTION AN ORACIA THING." Why yes Cathy I did, thank you for noticing that. Have a cookie. Anyways, I mentioned it because IT IS LITERALLY THE EXACT SAME THING.
"BUT WAIT" You say again, sure you have me against a corner. "THE TRILATERAL ALLIANCE WAS A BUNCH OF DAMN COMMIES! HOW COULD THEY BE THE SAME AS DICTATORS?" Because Jimmy it's called hyperbole. When I say the exact same thing I mean that it's a very similar setup. Because it is. And before you interrupt again... here's the setup essentially being proposed for Siora.
Quote:Two superpowers are battling for influence around the globe in a Cold War-esque scenario. These superpowers are backed by two alliances sharing their ideologies, one being democratic and the other being authoritarian, in an attempt to shape the very future of the human race and fight in a number of economic, political, social, and even military battles. But this state of unannounced war dare not explode into all out war between the superpowers because they would both end up collapsing and bringing the rest of the world with them into hell-fire.
Sounds about right? Maybe not exactly envisioned but I'd assume that's where this idea is going. Okay, so let's look at what Oracia's setup was.
Quote:Multiple superpowers are battling for influence around the globe in a Cold War-esque scenario. These superpowers are backed by two alliances sharing their ideologies, one being democratic and the other being communist, in an attempt to shape the very future of the human race and fight in a number of economic, political, social, and even military battles. But this state of unannounced war dare not explode into all out war between the superpowers because they would both end up collapsing and bringing the rest of the world with them into hell-fire. Also there's cat people and other weeb shit.
I took the liberty of highlighting the major differences. I dare you to tell me I'm wrong about the setup for Oracia. That all being said, here comes the most offensive thing I could say in the history of this community. Ready? Okay.
Oracia was not all bad. "BUT WAIT!" You say, about to screech a thousand screeches of misery and oh my god just let me finish.
Yes yes I know, it's easy for me to say that. But the scenario that was proposed actually really worked out nicely. Yes we all had a lot more free time (because we were young and stupid) and yes we fought a lot but there was serious passion in people's RPing. There was a palpability to it. Nations were more than really to gamble with the fate of the world in a great chess game and there was a give and take. And yes, that passion and chess play boiled over from IC into OOC to the point that it hurt.
What I've noticed is that we aren't willing to take those risks anymore. Partially because we are older and don't have the time, partially because we are concerned that others won't be around to play all the time, but especially because we got burned in Oracia. I do believe that how that ended plays a role into how we deal with one another. We prefer to talk out how things will play out rather than just... doing it.
And that hits a point I've noticed in myself. I hate deciding how things will go beforehand because it isn't RP anymore. It becomes writing. RP is supposed to be open-ended; the story isn't decided so we can change the fate of it. Now to avoid miscommunication we usually decide how things will go beforehand so to me it becomes less a fun thing to do and more a chore. I believe part of it is because we grew up with Oracia; we grew up with that chaos and on a subconscious level we seek to avoid what happened.
But I feel instead we've swung to the opposite end of the pendulum and have the opposite problem. Many of our RPs are already predetermined and the fate of a nation is already decided. What's the fun in that though?
I feel that adding a superpower isn't going to cut it as the only measure to increase activity. We need to make a more fundamental shift and swing the pendulum closer to the middle. We have to be willing to take risks and lose because it's life. That's what happens in life and that's what happens in a game. Oracia was challenging to endure yes, but I do believe there was fun to it. And no, it isn't because I became the player that got to run one of the big superpowers, because I also ran Almaniania, that small obnoxious upstart minor that was in Ilryiiad (or whatever we called it) that was making loud noises whenever anyone considered colonizing in the region. And frankly, I enjoyed that a lot as well. It was fun because it felt like everything wasn't always tied in a nice neat bow. People weren't always happy with the result and that's not a bad thing; losing is part of the game after all.
So when I say swing the pendulum again closer to the middle, I mean that as shifting in a way that brings that the uneven distribution of power in a global system. Upstarts trying to buck the system and shove it to the superpowers. Political chess games to block off communism/capitalism/whatever from a region or a power. Trying not to bring the world to nuclear war. It was fun and I think that we have matured enough to consider it.
Even more obnoxiously, I think a UN should be considered. Because many of the battles of the RL Cold War played out there and I think it adds a new dynamic with an international organization split between two international alliances (and probably a non-aligned movement) trying to just bring some damn peace and quiet to this rock of grass and water for once.
Just adding a superpower won't do much unless we look at a fundamental shift. Additionally, I don't know if having it be community run is actually a good idea for the simple purpose of it's just another thing everyone has to deal with then. Player nations can be superpowers; we did fine with only one Noberia essentially being Oracia's hyperpower (to the point that Nysans almost murdered me after suggesting a second one) and the fact is we technically have player nations as great powers (Lanlania, Severyane, etc.) already.
In addition, the aspect of nukes is a problem if only one nation has them. And I mean a big problem. I broke out the bold for that, that's how much of a problem it is! Without being too wordy, giving only one superpower nukes and not the other does not work as a deterrent. In reality, the Soviets raced to produce the atomic bomb to ensure that the United States wouldn't be the only one to have one. Cuba became a major crisis because the Soviets could be nuked from Turkey (until ICBMs and nuclear subs came into the picture) to ensure that the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) would hold up and prevent the Americans from having a strategic advantage over them.
Here's the thing. MAD only works if both sides have the bomb though. In this scenario, they wouldn't. That opens a major Pandora's Box in terms of realism right there, especially when we start talking about how long nuclear proliferation has been a thing. If it has been some time then I have no doubt that other major powers (and a few minor ones) would have cracked the secret to a nuclear bomb by now.
But if it's fairly recent, that's actually worse. Realistically, the bomb might be used then. It was almost used in the Korean War after all because the world didn't have an idea of the sheer brutality and horror that it could bring; had it been used for what was essentially a proxy war (which I remind everyone it almost was), the bomb would not be viewed as Death, Destroyer of Worlds but instead just another weapon to be used in war.
Which brings me to the other thing I wanted to talk about... nuclear weapons actually could be a thing and could make things more interesting. Brinksmanship, proxy wars, the political chess game that was the Cold War... we saw a lot of that because of the MAD Theory. Because both superpowers knew that if they went to war the end would come. And actually, that is exactly the sort of scenario we had in Oracia. The thing is, more than one nation would have to have them. If only one nation has them, it means we're just suspending realism in a way I am so not comfortable with or the bomb was developed for the first time recently (which, read the previous paragraph on why that would end badly).
So yeah. This has been a long string of consciousness but in summary:
- We need a fundamental shift in the community's dynamics.
- Let's stop being afraid to take risks and let's not get annoyed if/when we lose (yes this includes me shush).
- Just adding a superpower to be the big bad isn't a great idea.
- Having it be community run has the risk of it becoming a chore.
- If having nukes, number of nations with nuclear weapons must be greater than one.
- Oracia wasn't all bad and we could take a lesson or two from it.
Edit: By the way, these are generally raw thoughts. So yeah, just take that into account.
Extra Edit: By the way, if you're interested in learning more about how the US nearly nuked China during the Korean War, totally consider watching this video cause it's actually pretty spot on.
RE: On balancing and reviving activity - BrumBrum - 10-02-2017
To be honest I think we need to encourage international co-operation, maybe only allow above 2% growth for countries in economic treaties. Also encourage creation of alliances along regional, historical or even ideological lines(i.e if two countries are socialist). They happen in real life and I think we need to assume they'd start occuring in Siora plus it would be good having blocs competing for influence.
RE: On balancing and reviving activity - Flo - 10-05-2017
If you really want something to happen, I can talk with the master about potentially working something out to drum up some activity. I can't really be sure what it will be, but I can see what he thinks about it and what we can do in terms of potential "crises" or something like that. I'm not sure.
Creating some super big bad NPC probably isn't that great of an idea, just saying.
If anything, if you really really want something like this, we just need to shake up the status quo a bit. I can't really say what you would specifically need for something like that.
Ultimately, if you want activity, be more active. Do something by yourself if you must. At some point, people will catch on. That's what I've been doing. Take a look at Balochia.
If you're so concerned about the "Geopolitical nightmare" that prevents you from acting, break it. Do what you want anyway, and see what they do. Honestly. I'm basically massacring people in the great white north and I can only assume a coalition is forming to stop them featuring, at the very least, Harmajaa and Severyane. Maybe even Karjelinn? Soyabar seems to want in as well, and that's fine and dandy. Seriously, just do something and see what happens. Balochia was just as much to solve an OOC problem as it was an IC idea though, but I ran with it and now I might have some interesting things to do with Harmajaa, a place that mostly just sleeps.
I've rambled a lot, but if you truly want my advice... just do something. It doesn't have to be war stuff, but if that's what you want to do, just do it. You want a wild west like in old caprecia where people just warred wantonly? Go for it. It's not like theres an international body to stop you "legally" right? If people beat you up and stop you, good, you at least drummed up activity.
Idk, I'm feeling testy rn. Maybe this is one big incoherent ramble. It probably is. But seriously. you want activity? post.
RE: On balancing and reviving activity - Seperallis - 10-05-2017
(10-05-2017, 07:35 PM)Flo Wrote: you want activity? post.
*jackpot bells ring*
I have a lot on my mind regarding this subject. I've thought about it a lot today, and I could write a book, but I don't have the energy to put it all into words, because I know I can type a good 3000 words on the subject to fully work through every point I'd try to make on the myriad subjects that have been posed in this thread...which means I either 1) not writing as much and not doing justice to my arguments, or 2) dumping the entirety of the first evening in at least two weeks where I can actually get home on time and relax on something I don't actually care about and not get any actual relaxing done, thereby making me feel this entire evening was a wash and not feel rested in the morning (and i have a day filled with paperwork; I really need to be rested.)
But Both Flo and Nents have hit the nail squarely on the head: if you want activity, be active. Honestly, truly, don't give a shit about getting everyone on board through an OOC discussion (obviously make sure it's cool to invade someone if you're going to invade) and just do the fucking thing and find out what happens. Jefus Chrift.
My own lack of activity boils down to me simply not caring about MTRP anymore. Like, at all. It's stale to me, every scenario either a rehash of current events, recent history, or old history in our real world, and it's only gotten worse since "the good old days." I had fun. It was interesting while it lasted. I enjoyed it all a lot when I was younger, but now I'm just not interested in having fantasy rehashings of the same things that I hear, know, and experience in "real life;" when I relax, when I have fun, I want to get away from those kinds of things, not think even more about the world I live in, and that's why I have the same problem as Nents, where I think of a billion scenarios and story ideas for MTRP, except that my incentive doesn't entirely extend from the "ugh, now I actually have to write all that," but instead mostly a burnout from "exploring" the same motifs. I swear to Mogg, if I have to listen to another "democracy vs commies/fascists/Bob the Builder" proposal...
I found that, in spite of my general indifference to MTRP, my muse comes back the strongest when i think about proposals that I haven't personally explored before...which is why I have such fond memories of Caprecia, because it was a world so far removed from our own in ways that haven't even been touched here (both on this forum and in this thread.)
*** loooong pause ***
So, I'm on the phone with Sal, and I aired all my grievances, and now I don't know what I said or have the energy to repeat it all, but most of it was just me going deep into depth on what I said above. Needless to say, I'd much rather do Andlosheim...or any character-based fantasia, really. Or maybe some Space "Nation" rp...or maybe even not-fantasy medieval? No, not that, actually...I just want what I can't have here with MTRP, even assuming things were active. I've been fighting the urge to ~try~ and find somewhere else to get my jollies, and the urge grows larger the longer I hang around here. At this point, I'm just hanging around because I don't want to leave the people, while forcing myself to try and do something, anything to keep myself here, and unless things happen beyond MTRP, then I'm probably not long for this place.
Well, I made this a lot more about me than I intended, and didn't touch on any of the things where I was going to refute the assumptions about what would magically make this region community active again. Woops.